The idiom that repeatedly gets misused..

Say what? Anti-Semites? Who, us anti-Zionists? Us? We have nothing against Jews as such. We just hate Zionism and Zionists. We think Israel does not have a right to exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Heavens to Mergatroyd. Marx Forbid. We are humanists. Progressives. Peace lovers.

Anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism and Israeli policies. The two have nothing to do with one another. Venus and Mars. Night and day. Trust us.

Sure, we think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Sure, we think that the only children on earth whose being blown up is okay if it serves a good cause are Jewish children. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Sure, we think that if Palestinians have legitimate grievances this entitles them to mass murder Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Naturally, we think that the only people on earth who should never be allowed to exercise the right of self-defense are the Jews. Jews should only resolve the aggression against them through capitulation, never through self-defense. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We only denounce racist apartheid in the one country in the Middle East that is not a racist apartheid country. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We refuse to acknowledge the Jews as a people, and think they are only a religion. We do not have an answer to how people who do not practice the Jewish religion can still be regarded as Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think that all peoples have the right to self-determination, except Jews, and including even the make-pretend Palestinian “people” - and we like to ignore the fact that 80% of land arabs who now call themselves Palestinans lived on became Jordan. Israel is just a tiny sliver of that land. We like to pretend that the Jews stole Palestine, even though Palestine as it has always been known (a territory) became Jordan a lot more than it became Israel. We are happy to intentionally spread distortion about this. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We hate it when people blame the victims, except of course when people blame the Jews for the jihads and terrorist campaigns against them. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think the only country in the Middle East that is a fascist anti-democratic one is the one that has free elections. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We demand that the only country in the Middle East with free speech, free press or free courts be destroyed. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We oppose military aggression, except when it is directed at Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We really understand suicide bombers who murder bus loads of Jewish children and we insist that their demands be met in full. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think the only conflict on earth that must be solved through dismembering one of the parties to that conflict is the one involving Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We do not think that Jews have any human rights that need to be respected, and especially not the right to ride a bus without being murdered. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

There are Jewish, leftist anti-Zionists and we consider this proof that anti-Zionists could not possibly be anti-Semitic; not even the ones who cheer when Jews are mass murdered. These are the only Jews we think need be acknowledged or respected. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We do not think murder proves how righteous and just the cause of the murderer is, except when it comes to murderers of Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We do not think the Jews are entitled to their own state and must submit to being a minority in a Rwanda-style “bi-national state”, although no other state on earth, including the 22 Arab countries, should be similarly expected to be deprived of its sovereignty. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think that Israel’s having a Jewish majority and a star on its flag makes it a racist apartheid state. We do not think any other country having an ethnic-religious majority or having crosses or crescents or “Allah Akbar” on its flag is racist or needs dismemberment. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We condemn the “mistreatment” of women in the only country of the Middle East in which they are not mistreated. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We condemn the “mistreatment” of minorities in the only country in the Middle East in which minorities are not brutally suppressed and mass murdered. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We demand equal citizen rights, which is why the only country in the Middle East in need of extermination is the only one in which such rights exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We have no trouble with the fact that there is no freedom of religion in any Arab countries. But we are mad as hell at Israel for violating religious freedom, and never mind that we are never quite sure where or when it does so. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Israel, the West Bank and Gaza are small. They are barely larger than the Bay Area with a smaller population.

Perhaps a solution would be to take all Palestinians and Israelis and tell them that they have failed so miserably in their effort to live in the MIddle East that they have to all move elsewhere. All Israelis and Palestinians could be moved to some portion of the US South West (which has a similar climate) and there would be plenty of space for everyone (plus a better economy and better access to water). If they kept on fighting perhaps they could be given rival football teams to help them take out their agression in a less destructive fashion.

Cockburn and his crew really do protest too much. They will trot out a couple of anti-Israel Jews who will make the leftists who obsess about Israel feel better that they are demonizing them.
Most Jews I've met want a 2 state solution with the Palestinians having their own independent state living in peace with Israel. Most Israelis I met in my travels want the same thing. The Taba proposals made by Barak were the most sensible compromise made and yet there are forces in the Arab and Muslim world that cannot accept such a reasonable proposal because it includes the existence of Israel - A non-muslim nation in what they believe is Muslim-Only land. If the Israelis were Muslims and not Jews than there would be no issue here. The leftists really could give two rats asses regarding what Muslims do to other Muslims. They really couldn't care less. But make it Christians doing something to Muslims, or better yet, Jews (those who we used to idolize as the consummate underdogs) and we got a party!
I for one am sick of hearing people demonize Israel all the time. I don't think Sharon is desirable leader, but I wouldn't say he is any worse than the leaders of any of the neighboring countries.
Did you see what Hussein's dad did to the Palestinians in the seventies when they made problems in Jordan? You people would piss in your pants if Israel ever did anything of the sort now.
Assad? He is a lame dictator who is suffering from "the boss's son" phenomenon.
Mubarak? Have you seen the way this guy deals with dissent?
The House of Saud? Don't get me started.

Whatever -- none of you Israeli haters give a rats ass what I'm writing. You probably think I'm a Jew and therefore have no right to say what I'm saying.
Well Daddy's grammy was half, but I'm not.

Out.

When people point out the fact that Israel (with military support from USA) is committing crimes against the Palestinian people, they are labeled as anti-Semitic. This is inaccurate, as Semite people are also Arabs. If anything, being oppossed to Zionism in its current form is pro-Semitic, against the violence being perpetuated by the criminal racist state of apartheid Israel (with military support from USA). Israel building a concrete wall around the Palestinians is an example of the beginning stages of concentration camps..

Fundamentalist Islam is equally bigoted as right wing Zionism and fundamentalist Christianity. Islamic states in Africa (ex. Sudan) still allow slavery of non-Muslim peoples, usually light skinned Semitic Arabs enslaving darker skinned Nubian Africans who choose to maintain their traditional beliefs instead of converting to Islam..

Of course we could bring up Israel's financial support of apartheid South Africa in the early days of Zionism, though talking about Israeli racism can draw more death threats from JDL, so we'll quietly bury that part of history and call anyone who brings it up "anti-Semitic"..

Christian missionaries still bring alcohol and Bibles to indigenous villages in South America/Africa in hopes of converting them to the "True Religion" and abandoning their traditional ways of living in the rainforest. Or maybe the Christians just want to get the native people to operate the chainsaws for the timber corporations. All this under the guise of helping the less fortunate. This has taken place in America since Cristobal "Diablo" Columbus set his murderous feet on North American soil, spreading violence and death as he killed/enslaved native people in the name of Christianity..

So the point here is that its not just about Israel, the problems are far reaching and pertains to fundamentalist patriarchal religions;

Islam, Christianity and Zionist Judaism..

These three religions have been nothing but trouble to one another and other peoples who choose to believe different. These religions have justified warfare, crusades, slavery, racism, apartheid and other forms of oppression..

So from now on, its not just about "Free Palestine" its also Free Africa, Free the Americas, Free Asia and Free the Global Village from fundamentalist Christianity, Zionist Judaism and fundamentalist Islam..

The People of Earth has lived under the boot of patriarchal fundamentalist religions for too long..

Every single nyc jew I know also wants israel to be safe and a palestinian state nextdoor (but only one run by moderates, if fundamentalist lunatics want to run it, they will get nothing).

As for the person above, "zionist judaism" - if you're going to generalize - is not a "fundamentalist religion" nor is it "extremist." Zionists want israel to exist. That's it. They disagree on almost everything else. Some zionists want the occupation to end, others think it needs to continue until palestinians are run by moderates. Some zionists are extreme and feel it is crazy for israel to give control of the west bank away after what arab countries did, other zionists are liberal and want to give away as much as is possible.

To generalize about "zionists" in the manner you people do is really wacky and dishonest.

OK thinks that Israel is democratic. Hilarious. I am old enough to remember when maybe it WAS democratic, when it was a PURE JEWISH STATE. How can the people who suffered some of the worst oppression of the 20th century turn around and do the same thing to others? This, I think, is some sort of psychological malfunction.

Example: the Jewish Law Students Association at my school just appropriated another student organization's space on a campus bulletin board. Despite the fact that open space lay elsewhere. Imperialism everywhere I turn.

I used to wish I was Jewish. I admired so many Jewish people for their intelligence and insight. I still do, but you Zionists just take the prize for replicating pain. The entire middle east has been redrawn during the 20th century by outside forces. Why would you expect displaced people to be POLITE about their displacement?

Now, Zionists are trying to tell me that Palestine was EMPTY. Talk about your revisionist history. I am old enough to know better than that.

Try living in peace and equality with the people who are already there instead of exercising state terrorism, just like everyone else should. Catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Peace.

"Every single nyc jew I know also wants israel to be safe and a palestinian state nextdoor (but only one run by moderates, if fundamentalist lunatics want to run it, they will get nothing)."

Why can't the state of Palestine have a government of fundamentalist lunatics?

The state of Israel currently has one.

If you don't understand how a group that has been discriminated against can perpetuate discrimination against another group you obviously have lived a very priviledged and sheltered life. Any group that has gotten the short end of the stick will react this way when they have a hold of political power. Look at Rwanda, people were kept down and when they had an opportunity they acted in a most horrific manner. This has happened throughout human history. If anything, the Israelis have been pretty measured in their repsonse to terror.

If this does not make sense, think of a small kid on the schoolyard who is picked on, beat up, made to eat dirt, etc. Then, one day, he manages to seize the mechanisms of power in the school. Do you think he will let bygones be bygones or do you think he will enact his revenge?

I know this kind of Hobbesian perspective isn't fuzzy and cuddly and nice but it is unfortuntely the state of the human condition. You can create all the socialist utopias in your heads that you like but we can never escape the "will to power". "Actually existsing socialism" proved this as does "democratic capitalism."

I may understand how it happens. That doesn't mean it's moral.

When I was a bank supervisor, one of the people I worked with, a bookkeeper, was the sweetest person I knew. Eventually, she was promoted to management, and turned into The Boss from Hell. Izzat how it is?

Not for me. I am a white poverty-class woman who lived through two abusive marriages. I don't oppress anyone, but you bet your butt I look back twice, and hurry up, when I see a white male behind me.

affecting a world-weary pose isn't a convincing substitute for logical argumentation. nor is pushing over straw-men ("you socialist utopians don't understand that since time immemorial humans have been blah blah blah")

one of our sophisticated jerk-offs, thinking he's saying something deep and original, "explains" why the Israeli state should be given a free pass this way:

<<Do you think he will let bygones be bygones or do you think he will enact his revenge?>>

hey shit-for-brains: if Jews wanted to "enact revenge" against Nazis they'd be hunting Nazis in Europe, NOT BRUTALIZING AND DISPOSSESSING PALESTINEANS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

"anti-oppressionist" says: OK thinks that Israel is democratic.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Yes, it is. A perfect democracy? Of course not. But 100% of Israeli citizens vote the leaders who run the place, so yes, it is a democracy.

"anti-oppressionist" says: Hilarious. I am old enough to remember when maybe it WAS democratic, when it was a PURE JEWISH STATE.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: What? So what are you, 5000 years old?

"anti-oppressionist" says: How can the people who suffered some of the worst oppression of the 20th century turn around and do the same thing to others?

EDUCATED RESPONSE: They aren't doing "the same thing" or anything even remotely close to others.

"anti-oppressionist" says: Example: the Jewish Law Students Association at my school just appropriated another student organization's space on a campus bulletin board. Despite the fact that open space lay elsewhere. Imperialism everywhere I turn.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Nice, do any christian people or athiest people ever do that? What's with the random example of jews doing something wrong?

"anti-oppressionist" says: I used to wish I was Jewish. I admired so many Jewish people for their intelligence and insight. I still do, but you Zionists just take the prize for replicating pain.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: "You zionists?" Haha, shut the fuck up.

"anti-oppressionist" says: The entire middle east has been redrawn during the 20th century by outside forces. Why would you expect displaced people to be POLITE about their displacement?

EDUCATED RESPONSE: TOns of places were redrawn. India had land ripped away and turned into Pakistan. YOu don't see Hindus going to Pakistan to commit terrorism every day. Jews were ripped out of arab countries. You don't see jews going to yemen to blow up restaurants. Jews are trying to protect Israel.

"anti-oppressionist" says: Now, Zionists are trying to tell me that Palestine was EMPTY.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: No one said Palestine was "EMPTY" in a literal sense. But it certainly wasn't heavily populated. And this Palestine you speak of, 80% of it is now JORDAN. Israel is a majority of the REMAINING 20%.

"anti-oppressionist" says: Try living in peace and equality with the people who are already there instead of exercising state terrorism, just like everyone else should. Catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Peace.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Israelis would love to live in peace with their neighbors. How is that possible when their neighbors are led by Arafat, the PA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other such groups who want the occupation to end AND want Israel to cease to exist?

Aaron, your comment is so typical. I know the points raised went way over your head. But you can't refute reality so you curse me out. No wonder the left is so influential in this country.

;-)

BTW the Israelis are still hunting Nazis (esp. in South America) but they are also hunting the terrorists threatening them today in Israel.

And I never said "Israel should be given a pass" that is your own infantile mind making things up again. I was answering the question, "how could people who were oppressed, oppress other people"? It's obvious to me and to most people who have spent anytime away from a live of priviledge in the good ol' USA. Humans are brutal to other humans, it's part of the human condition. It's also time for you to break out of your politically correct paradigm and wake up to reality.

I never claimed that my statement was original. But it was deep as Hobbes was a deep thinker.

Your dullard mind seems to have somehow missed the reference to Hobbes.

"I know this kind of Hobbesian perspective isn't fuzzy and cuddly and nice but it is unfortuntely the state of the human condition."

The Hobbesian world-view expunges the fact that human conduct is mediated by social-material conditions.

If the Hobbesian view of human possibilities were accurate than there wouldn't exist communities of people which don't exploit, abuse and destroy one another--nor would people ever band together for the common good. The cooperative pre-school that my three year old attends would have fallen into disarray within minutes of its inception--not lasted sixty years, and still going strong, as it has. Community gardens would never see the light of day. Disasters--whether an earthquake or 911-- wouldn't be resonded to with human solidarity and selfless courage. Etc.

If humans are innately pre-disposed to being cruel and selfish, why are there are so many exceptions to this supposedly iron-clad rule?

A society that encourages greed and callousness (like the US today) is going to produce many who think being greedy and callous is okay (surprise surprise), but that doesn't prove the inherent wickedness of human nature anymore than the existence of communities that live peacefully proves that it's benevolent.

There's a reason that people who are subjected to horrible, abject conditions are more likely to be brutish than those who come up in an environement that's caring, secure, and encourages cooperation.

In your previous post which i responded to, you said:

"If you don't understand how a group that has been discriminated against can perpetuate discrimination against another group you obviously have lived a very priviledged and sheltered life."

this is such a mess that i had to read it over five times, and i'm still not sure what you are saying. either you are claiming that the Palestineans have discriminated against Israeli's (ha!) OR you are conceding that Israeli's are "perpetuat[ing] discrimination against another group"--i.e. the Palestineans. Which one is it, mr. hobbes?

I've had the chance to read some of the literature dealing with the "collective action problem" from a variety of ideological perspectives (Olson, Axelrod, Schilling, Tilly et al) and most authorities agree that cooperation is quite difficult to achieve. It's certainly not the norm. I recommend reading through the literature and coming to your own conclusions. I used to have ideas similar to yours but I woke up to reality.

Regarding the classics, I admit that Hobbes' "Leviathan" is a bit heavy-handed but it is a far more accurate interpretation of humanity than Kropotkin's "Mutual Aid" or any of the other lefty authors you must have had the opportunity to read.

I grew up in an environment that was "caring, secure, and encourage[d] cooperation". I think everyone deserves that in the family. But before I left the nest, I was also informed and educated as to the existence of a big wide world out there and that people I interact with who are not my family may end up treating me differently than my loved ones. In other words, they may not be quite so caring, secruing, and encouraging of cooperation.

Ever had a boss Aaron? My boss encourages "cooperation" to get more work out me. I believe "surplus-value extraction" is the term you lefties use. She certainly isn't doing it out of some emotional sense but wants to increase her profits. She's operating out of self-interest.

Aaron, to repeat, the reason I posted my comment was in response to the played-out question I hear time and time again in various forms from you softy lefties. Namely, "How can the people who suffered some of the worst oppression of the 20th century turn around and do the same thing to others?"

I provided a clear and accurate answer. Read it over a couple of times if you are having difficulties.

In response to your final question, I was describing the Israelis. If you recall, they were the subject of the question asked by "anti-oppressionist" that I was responding to in the first instance.

Did you forget the question again?

Here it is just for you:

"How can the people who suffered some of the worst oppression of the 20th century turn around and do the same thing to others?"

I can tell you do not like the way the world works but that will not change the fact that the will to power is a constant throughout human history. And power is not only exercised in the work-place example given above (boss-worker) but even in a family that is "caring, secure, and encourages cooperation". Even Chomsky admits this.

People like you not only fear power, you hate power. And then you go on and whine about how marginalized you are. People who are not afraid of power are able to get the things out of life that they desire.

Now this does not make power an absolute good. Power is fluid. It can be used for good or bad purposes. Witness Hitler and Stalin. But power can be used for good as well, as in our defeat of Nazism in WWII and communism in the Cold War.

Jewish people were among the most powerless in the world until the founding of the state of Israel. As long as they stayed in their powerless position the lovey-dovey left loved the Jews. They self-identified with the Jews, as "anti-oppressionist" makes clear:

"I used to wish I was Jewish"

Now Jews have power in the form of a state. They also have economic power and strong cultural and social institutions. And today, Jews are hated by the left that used to love and identify with them. In conclusion, the therapeutic left loves weakness and fears strength.

Right on!

With regard to your last point - about the left loving victims - you could not be more right. The left, especially democratic leaders, wants there to be a continual supply of victims which they can defend. Witness their opposition to school vouchers - a social program that would help the poor like no other, freeing them from the bondage of ignorancen AND their reliance on the dems.

I believe our future depends on the route the Hispanic immigrants will take. Will they follow the Irish, Germans, Italians and Jewish immigrant examples and assimilate into American culture and their fair share of freedoms. Or, will they be duped by the left into foregoing self-reliance and personal responsibilty for a few hand outs? For the sake of their children, I hope they stay close to their faith - both in their religion and in themselves.